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Readjusting Tiers: What In The Sam Hell Do You People Want?

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Chao
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Just pick one

7 - 29%
7 - 29%
1 - 4%
9 - 38%
 
Total Votes: 24
 
Chao
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Sat Mar 22, 2014 7:53 am

I will drop my thoughts into the mix because I can

TLDR: I vastly prefer change but I understand why things are kept the same. more orgs = higher demand for 0 tiers.

The tiers have always been the same as I recall even on COL I was shown a very similar tier system. I always hear the quote 'don't fix what isn't broken' and to be quite frank, I absolutely hate that phrase. If it doesn't need fixing, then why do we get new models of cars? They all still go broom broom and take you from A to B. It's the same with chocolate bars. Dairy milk recently changed the shape of the chocolate they sold. Why? Why not? Its new. It's exciting. It makes you want to try it, even once just to see the difference.

People innovate and change things even if it is already working because people get bored and tired of the usual stuff. I can honestly say that after seeing the same old tier system for the past decade, I can't help but feel we have hit a wall when it comes to gauging someone's power level creatively. Not to say that's a really bad thing.

However this isn't me saying 'drop it, make a new one'. I just wouldn't be all against it. The current tier system works and does it's job fine as is and people can understand it without any real hiccups. They didn't make the saying if it didn't make sense after all. As much as I disagree with it. The shape of a hammer hasn't changed in centuries after all.

Yes I contradicted myself there. And that is why the decision to innovate is so difficult. Both sides hold rewards and losses. it is up to the team to decide which path to follow and stick with it until the end. The tiers discussion will likely go on for an eternity just because of this fact.

Nonetheless, I do agree with people in saying that we have quite a selection of uber tiers on the site but we have been aware of that for years and nothing really changed when we brought it up before. We need the tough nuts to fill the big positions. The only way you can get around that is by reducing the number of big positions available. The more giant organisations we have, the more we need 0 tiers to fill those positions. Creating more and more groups and adding more races etc will just add to the needed 0 tiers to make them even slightly viable on the site. Sadly not many people will want to join something that doesn't go anywhere. the end result is always 'more power' whether you like it or not.

EDIT:

Just noticed frost mentioned removing the Yen-upgrade thingy. Please remove it. I completely forgot we even had it. The site should not become Pay-to-win. A new member could in theory hop into the site, be real friendly and RP with some people. Get Member of the month for the first month they're here (a lot of people have in the past) and then buy themselves a 1 tier. They could even go through the lottery or plead for yens from someone else via a transfer. It wont get them to 0 tier, but they do have easy access to a low captain level from this.
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Sat Mar 22, 2014 11:22 am


Alrighty. Basically...

Out of billions of souls that exist in the many planes of our site, only 100 of those have a zero tier? If our average human was a zero tier, then yes, I'd see that as a terrific problem; but the blood, sweat, and tears of people that went into making these creations that received that tier? That's slightly different.

In my experience, we have not habitually been giving out 0 tiers just because we feel like it. I have several 1-1++'s; 0 tier is still respected, and we still want people to get there. To me, that shows that those who have it generally deserve it.

As far as shops go - Yes, i do believe that after 0-3-, things should not be able to be bought or gotten through special events; but I also wish for us to make that fact public, or have something like multiples of those upgrades that the user has taken time to save up could advance them.

Personally, I think that the amount of zero tiers isn't a problem; 100 characters have so much quality that they can be among the highest on our site? That's f#cking amazing, not something to get worried about. I have over ten zero tiers personally; I've been at this whole PH thing actively for over three years now. I know it's a lot. But I also know that I put in the work for them.

Colin Washi 0-2++ - Started at 2-3+ and worked his way all the way up.
Dr. Kabuto Hebi 0-2++ - Started at 0-4+ as my main antagonist; worked his way up.
Gilgamesh 0-2++ - FREAKING GILGAMESH, a co-head position.
Coyote Starrk 0-2+ - Starrk, I have maintained some amount of activity with ever since I received him and love using him.
Schrödinger Yuudeshi 0-2 - Five. F#cking. Pages. of Application. My brain is still numb imagining that.
Katana Broadshield 0-3+ - Started out as a member of the Banshees, back when they were trying to become an elite fighting force. Out of all my zero tiers, probably has the least amount of backing to her.
Byakuya Kuchiki 0-3+ - Started this way as a Canon and had been this way before I received him.
Gift Jackson 0-3 - Worked his way up from 1-3.
Grimmjow Jaegerjaquez 0-3 - Again, Canon, came this way and has also been upgraded by me.
Justin Washi 1-3+, 0-5+, 0-4+ - Has a freaking god inside of him; has been active in threads; encouraged others to make characters... A favorite of mine, having the ultimate form of the Washi, the only time when he has access to 0-4+, meaning that most of the time he is barely a zero tier.
James Mizumuzi 0-4+ - Started at 1-3+, I believe, the first member of the Nature Iramasha; built his way up and also performed actively on the site, though his role of late has not been shown recetly.
Moonie 0-3+ - Started as 1-3+. Gosh. Darnit. He's one of my most active characters, EVER. Has some of the greatest fights I've ever been in, and the way he fights is simply amazing. (To me, anyway.)
Katto Soan 0-4+-1-1+ - A Zero Division member whose 0 tier is LITERALLY pending; he was put at 1-1+ to see if he would be eligible for the 0-4+ tier with activity. Otherwise, it is sealed within his bankai, meaning that he is typically not a zero tier.
Tobi/Cole Iramasha 0-5+ - A former Angel Iramasha Leader and one of the longer apps I have made. While he definitely has the power for this tier; on basis of activity he is one of my utter least. He is the only one in this list to have never had a thread done with him before; never once. However, his tier does accurately represent his power level; does activity truly change power level after they have worked to gain it?
Blaze 0-5+ - One of my villains who was originally the co-head of Haseo's america. He was originally at 1 tier until he was bumped up to 0-5+ when the checker saw the amount of power that he was able to display. I have roleplayed with him before, and am even in a thread with him right now.
Shinji Hirako 0-5+ - Eeeeeeh. Shinji would come in for second of all my characters in this list who probably should not be their present tier. I have next to no muse with him; I've had threads with him in the past, but they weren't anything worth writing home about. He could potentially be this powerlevel in the right hands and with a proper bankai; but as my Q1 2012 version shows, it is really not that powerful.
Alex Washi 0-5 - My first zero tier. Ever. I love playing him and have greatly enjoyed doing so in the past; has been one of the most active and consistent member of the Rinyauru; was a co-head through the time of Nagato and then Zefonse.
Kuro Okami 0-5 - Started at 4-1. Worked his way all the way up through the tiers, my first ever approved character. Went through so much crap that his mind is nothing like when he started out, and has been in the past one of my most active characters.

There's my list. So out of 18 zero tiers, only 2 of them have a reason why their current powerlevel does not suit them. Should we degrade the rest, therefore, despite the fact that they in some way or another 'earned' that tier? Last night I offered up six or seven who I would not mind being changed; but in the end of the day, most of those DID do something to deserve that tier, and I am COMPLETELY against misrepresenting work that has been properly done.

0-3/0-2, I do think should get double staff approval, one of whom should be an Administrator. However, with at least a Moderators check they should be able to perform in casual roleplays and use their powers up to a 1 tier until they have received full approval. That way, the large percent of characters would be able to remain at the same activity we have now, and we would also have the security of ensuring their tier.

So I'd say Alternative. Recognize work that is and has been done. Get it right the first time so we don't need to back track (Been guilty of that once or twice before; one of the worst predicaments you can get into on the site.). Recognize that having so many zero tiers should be a GOOD thing, not bad, as quality characters can only help the site. Do ask if there is anyone who would like a tier re-evaluation... but allow for it to go both ways. If the only direction we head in is down, then we're no better than Dr. Faustus.

The last thing I'd offer is: Tell the member if they are going to receive a zero tier. That opens a dialogue of communication on what that means for them and that character, as well as giving them the chance to decline it if they did not imagine the character that way or if they believe something was wrong with the check.

Last note: People are different. They will do things at different rates. Staff are human beings. They can change their opinions of things and therefore change what they would do. Having disparity over who receives what power level is something that will not go away while we are a site; that's a simple fact. However, people have the power to CHOOSE how they think. They can't control the actions of others; they can control themselves. I know how I felt when Blank walked in as a 0-2 and me and my Colin were barely beginning to enter 1 tier, despite the fact that I'd been working on him, and only him, for months. However... I realized that that negativity and dislike is pointless. The only thing envy or dislike can accomplish is bringing one down. Every character has work put into them, they all deserve to be recognized. Caring so intensely about tier is just begging to bring up more drama than it's worth; I played Moonie the same way as a 1-3+ as I did as an 0-5+. That's the way he was written and how he played. Tier gives a general outline of the maximum output a character can have; it's so vague that indeed, caring intensely about who gets it and how they get it... is only bad for the self. I know that through my own experience and the experience of others.

The reason I put Gin's face at the top of this post? He had the exact same ideas of changing who had powerlevels. It caused his first and last ban. And you know why we didn't listen to him? Because we respected the work that people had put into their characters.

I just want everyone to remember that.

~Those be my thoughts~




Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.
- Buddha
Imakuran
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Sat Mar 22, 2014 3:05 pm
So, keeping with the theme of responding to these walls of text with apathy and short messages and since Pammy is the main reason this is even a discussion we'll focus on her. Pammy has been given tiers she has not yet earned, she has been given privileges she should not have been given, authority she has not paid her dues for...but she was given them. She played within the rule and within the system and did everything she was supposed to within the confines and parameters that we have set out. Consequently, she shouldn't be punished for playing by the rules and the whole tier adjustments are neither just nor fair.

So we need to do a better job of giving out proper tiers, we need to raise our restrictions on freebie tiers at creation, we need to stop playing favorites, and we need to work on uniforming our grading processes, at least in regards to tier because whether or not you think "envy" is toxic and detrimental...it's our fault it even exists. We shouldn't punish people because we sucked at our jobs.

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Sun Mar 23, 2014 10:41 am
If Ulqui wouldn't mind, since he has all the data already, can he parse how many of those started at a tier below 0 tier and worked their way up to it versus those who started with 0 tier?
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Tue Mar 25, 2014 8:36 am

※Cookies Are Giving Opinions, Yo'※


I agree with what kyle said as well along with the rest, but what i really want is how Tier 0 system works.

I do not like the fact that Tier 0 are given away right off the bat, just like under Pammy's case and my own case with a direct hit of 0-2 immediately which greatly delays and cuts off developments of characters for them to slowly grow from low tier to a high tier. It really brings an unfairness to those are working hard for Tier 0 when currently, i see some of the new members gets tier 0 characters approved right off the bat after a few weeks being in PH. Really, it would be unfair for anyone that works seriously hard to get to that point of level where their character has created a lot of developments than those who just created an app and get tier 0 'just like that'. Preferrably, its better to be stricter in giving out Tier 0s' unless they are characters that are meant to die in a thread/in an event as a final boss or a tough boss-like character to fight against to improve a person's tier & create development on their character's plots. Otherwise, i would want to see less frequent Tier 0s to be approved so suddenly, so seconds to Kyle's opinions. The stricter with Tier 0s, the better.

I am not great at giving opinions, but this is the best i can judge about for now.


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Kaito_Kojuurou
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Tue Mar 25, 2014 4:28 pm
I heard that people were saying that we need tier 2 and 3s and such, why not allow people to sell off some of their tier levels for something they may not have gotten normally, such as:

- access to bankai early or at creation,
- large scale plotlines geared towards their character
- other objects or positions that might make rp interesting


Squad: ??
Position: ??

Cannon to right of them,
Cannon to left of them,
Cannon in front of them
Volley'd and thunder'd;
Storm'd at with shot and shell,
Boldly they rode and well,
Into the jaws of Death,
Into the mouth of Hell
Rode the six hundred.
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Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:12 am
Kaito_Kojuurou wrote:I heard that people were saying that we need tier 2 and 3s and such, why not allow people to sell off some of their tier levels for something they may not have gotten normally, such as:

- access to bankai early or at creation,
- large scale plotlines geared towards their character
- other objects or positions that might make rp interesting

Lemme just start by saying... this was Ulqui's idea.

Anyway, selling tiers could be a good thing, but then again their character wouldn't be the same character if it was dropped from like 0-5 to a 2 tier. Huge power difference there. Selling tiers would simply ruin the characters. Not to mention giving bankai at creation is a horrendous idea, and that's why it's not allowed unless there are certain circumstances.

Large scale plotlines towards their character isn't something we can give you, that's something you have to give yourself through activity with that character. If your character becomes well known and what not then there is a larger chance that he/she is a part of the reason the next major event happens or even a small event or whatever. Increase your activity with your character and these things become possible.

Other objects can be created and given to a character through RP and positions can be obtained through activity with the character as well.

The thing with Zero tiers is that it is making it difficult for us to obtain new people in the forum unless they make characters that are able to reach up to these higher tiers with their first character. Almost everyone on the site has these low tier characters that they use sometimes but are never active with them. While, yes, people can still rp with zero tier or one tier character when they are a four or three tier, it just makes it difficult to find decent fights. As that's what the majority of this RP forum is about, like it or not. Bleach is an action manga... therefore there is action. With no one being seriously active with their lower-tier characters we have to wait around for people like Styn to show up that actually have ambition to build their character up and isn't afraid to RP with high tier characters. This is something that is stunting the growth of the of the forum, not to mention the overall plummet in the Bleach fan-base in general.

I know we're all trying to have fun here, but it'd be nice if we could allow other people to join the site and have fun too instead of keeping it all to ourselves. I believe that the number of zero tiers would be fine, IF we had a bit more people on the site. That being said, we need to slow it down with the zero tiers and make some new story lines with new characters so that others can join us and we can help them get to a middle ground with tier so that there can be a constant cycle within the forums as far as tiers go.


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Sat Mar 29, 2014 2:40 am


「MAKING A DECISION NOW」
Judging from all of the post in this thread, along with the poll numbers, I doubt we'll be having a major change from this point on when it comes to how things are. What is going to change is that we will be doing double tier checks on 0-3/0-2 characters, regulating HIGHER 0 tiers more, and to take into account the collective activity, how much those members have been here and for how long, etc. So don't think this is going to be some major crack down anymore, just expect more critical reviews in the future. Kyle can probably word it up better since I'm going with his idea. I'll also probably increasing yen prices for 0 tiers in the yen store after this and making it MORE OBVIOUS we can deny certain request; as they are all still under review even if you are paying for it and you are subject to those rules. Which, in that event, we will refund you.


Kyle wrote:Mostly, a mixture of both being more critical and keeping them the way they are seems best. I'd like to see more restrictions placed on the higher tier, and not give out so easily (higher tier being that of 0-3/0-2 status) so the double approval for them is fine with me. However, on the case of everything else, I generally don't have a problem with how we're currently set up. Time restrictions are always going to come into play, as it takes time to know people and how they are doing on the site, but I think my point has been covered in enough detail in both Skype and thread. I don't want to take away tiers from people, I hate doing it (as we recently did with Aiko), so the readjusting of tiers: I don't care for. I just want those higher tiers regulated more, and to take into account the collective activity, how much those members have been here and for how long, etc.

That's pretty much my view, yeah. When I say 'time restrictions', I don't mean something set in stone, but just keeping an eye on how long someone has been here before we give them some tiers and then they don't just disappear with the going of the wind. Of course it ranges from app to app, but if one staff member believes an app is 0-2 or 0-3 worthy, then we can review them as such as we always have in the past. I don't want to have people start out low because we're 'cracking down' on tiers, which I'm not really a fan of myself, so if someone does an amazing app, I do want them rewarded from it, but the site has got much bigger than it was in 2011, so if we handed out apps with 0-2/0-3 levels or upgrades a lot, it takes away the, in a sense, sanctity of being that level.


So feel free to chime in after this post with what your ideas will be for this, Kyle.


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Sat Mar 29, 2014 8:34 am
All right, I'll try to keep this as short as possible so people can easily just skim through it without a massive wall of text to read.

If people do not understand what I mean by my previous posts, I'm inclined for both sides. Whilst there are an incredibly high number of 0 tier on the site now, I don't believe we should regulate and 'crack down' on the tiers and take them away from people. There are specific instances were such actions will be called for, such as the Aiko situation, but overall just see a higher priority of making zero tier a more special tier for members. To be honest, this isn't hard to do. I'm not saying give a app a lower tier just 'because'. I'm saying I'd like for people to be more critical in their analysis, mostly, or grab the opinions of others if you are conflicted on what tier to give the character you are grading.

Yet at the same time, I love the way we are currently. We allow people to start at a higher level than most sites, we allow for ridiculous powers. We are the most custom site there is, so why would we change something like that? My main point is for staff to take note of activity, time active, reliability and trust before handing out upgrades to those of zero tier. The buying system of tiers and skills can be declined from case to case, so even if someone bought their tier, staff are able to decline based on the situation. As Frost mentioned in his post above, higher tier prices placed on the zero tier section seems essential. And when it comes to earning tiers from completing objectives in events (such as claiming a prize in Australia, Operation: Blood, etc) for it to be purely based on what they achieved in thread. Rather than obtaining a prize of 'tier upgrade' for participating, but for what they have achieved in the specific thread. Money and even skill upgrades are fine with me, in terms of rewards for participating, but the reward of tier might be given to someone who did absolutely NOTHING in thread. As for third-party contests, such as Fight Night or 30 Day Posting Challenge, either a single tier upgrade as reward, or perhaps the limit of using one per character.

As I said, if staff deem an app worthy of being approved of 0-3 or 0-2 level, then we will treat that like normal, except we grab the 'double' approval on it rather than getting a single staff member to approve it. That goes for admins as well, any app someone deems of 0-3 or higher level needs the analysis of two staff members (preferably not double admin, as that puts a strain and a limited amount of people who can check it.)

That's mostly my view and I can't really think of many ways to expand on it right now, if you wish for clarification, either post or contact me personally and I will submit a reply here.




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