Readjusting Tiers: What In The Sam Hell Do You People Want?
+9
Chao
Majestic Moose
||-BlankMystery-||
Sage
Kakeru
Dexterity
CPKallday
Teitoku
THEFROST
13 posters
Page 1 of 3 • 1, 2, 3
Just pick one
Readjusting Tiers: What In The Sam Hell Do You People Want?
Fri Mar 21, 2014 11:48 pm
«DEBATING THIS WHOLE TIER ORDEAL»
Okay, this is driving me friggin' nuts. There has been much debate over the whole tier spectrum. We've been questioning who gets 0 tier, how fast they get it, where they get it, how active they need to be and then other members getting upset over the fact that various individuals get theirs faster than others; where some just want to get rid of the yen-upgrade thing altogether.
Therefore, in an effort to get to the root of this problem, I'm asking everyone staff to members: should we do something about this? If there is something off, let me know. I cannot fix anything I AM NOT AWARE OF! The more data and information I am given, the better decisions I can make towards having a site where at least a good percentage of the people are happy. That is my overall objective in running Platinum Hearts. To have an open-ended place where my community can have a creative outlet
So in this way, just give me anything I need to know about your opinion with this whole tier business. Should I go ahead and make 0-3/0-2 double staff approved? Should we start cracking down on future apps? What's the limit for how fast someone can progress? Why do you feel you haven't gotten what you needed? All of these questions and more are some of the things that come to mind when I've seen people's reactions to this whole ordeal. Especially after what ignited once we found out we had 100+ 0 tiers on the site and people were up in arms about that as well.
It's like: what the fuck do you want me and staff to do? There is no pleasing people at times and it's in this mindset that I originally never wanted to bother with the site when I shut it down back in September; but I understand that this is also stress talking and I'm not going to let that keep ruining a good thing. Others should bare this in mind as well and just learn to take a breath; as I myself have a good load of strain on my plate.
All in all, I just want to get it settled as I personally can't have something this major on my chest and shoulders while I'm trying to get my own life in order with this 1,000+ mile move; so I'm looking to sort this out before or a little after April. So click a poll option, leave a comment and let's discuss what the dang problem is for the betterment of everyone's healt
Therefore, in an effort to get to the root of this problem, I'm asking everyone staff to members: should we do something about this? If there is something off, let me know. I cannot fix anything I AM NOT AWARE OF! The more data and information I am given, the better decisions I can make towards having a site where at least a good percentage of the people are happy. That is my overall objective in running Platinum Hearts. To have an open-ended place where my community can have a creative outlet
So in this way, just give me anything I need to know about your opinion with this whole tier business. Should I go ahead and make 0-3/0-2 double staff approved? Should we start cracking down on future apps? What's the limit for how fast someone can progress? Why do you feel you haven't gotten what you needed? All of these questions and more are some of the things that come to mind when I've seen people's reactions to this whole ordeal. Especially after what ignited once we found out we had 100+ 0 tiers on the site and people were up in arms about that as well.
It's like: what the fuck do you want me and staff to do? There is no pleasing people at times and it's in this mindset that I originally never wanted to bother with the site when I shut it down back in September; but I understand that this is also stress talking and I'm not going to let that keep ruining a good thing. Others should bare this in mind as well and just learn to take a breath; as I myself have a good load of strain on my plate.
All in all, I just want to get it settled as I personally can't have something this major on my chest and shoulders while I'm trying to get my own life in order with this 1,000+ mile move; so I'm looking to sort this out before or a little after April. So click a poll option, leave a comment and let's discuss what the dang problem is for the betterment of everyone's healt
- TeitokuBlackblood
- Joined : 2011-02-25
Posts : 2112
Age : 28
Location : Nowhere
Member Info
Platinum Points:
(0/0)
Tiers:
Re: Readjusting Tiers: What In The Sam Hell Do You People Want?
Fri Mar 21, 2014 11:57 pm
Mostly, a mixture of both being more critical and keeping them the way they are seems best. I'd like to see more restrictions placed on the higher tier, and not give out so easily (higher tier being that of 0-3/0-2 status) so the double approval for them is fine with me. However, on the case of everything else, I generally don't have a problem with how we're currently set up. Time restrictions are always going to come into play, as it takes time to know people and how they are doing on the site, but I think my point has been covered in enough detail in both Skype and thread. I don't want to take away tiers from people, I hate doing it (as we recently did with Aiko), so the readjusting of tiers: I don't care for. I just want those higher tiers regulated more, and to take into account the collective activity, how much those members have been here and for how long, etc.
Re: Readjusting Tiers: What In The Sam Hell Do You People Want?
Sat Mar 22, 2014 12:03 am
Teitoku wrote:Mostly, a mixture of both being more critical and keeping them the way they are seems best. I'd like to see more restrictions placed on the higher tier, and not give out so easily (higher tier being that of 0-3/0-2 status) so the double approval for them is fine with me. However, on the case of everything else, I generally don't have a problem with how we're currently set up. Time restrictions are always going to come into play, as it takes time to know people and how they are doing on the site, but I think my point has been covered in enough detail in both Skype and thread. I don't want to take away tiers from people, I hate doing it (as we recently did with Aiko), so the readjusting of tiers: I don't care for. I just want those higher tiers regulated more, and to take into account the collective activity, how much those members have been here and for how long, etc.
So basically, you want both of them, correct? If so, I went ahead and added that as an option on the poll. Additionally, there is also vote cancellation now. I'm fine with the double approval as well, but I don't care if it isn't instated as well. As far as time restrictions go? I'm down with whatever anyone else is cool with. And with people flip-flopping back and forth over what these tiers mean, something just has to give in my opinion with alot of these debates that have occurred over the past week.
For me? I don't care about time restrictions genuinely, but there seemed to be a big ordeal over all of this the past few weeks and perhaps a more keen insight was needed to overview how fast people are getting these tiers after there was a big hoopla over that 100+ tier count on the site out of our 440 characters. So I'll keep your suggestion in mind in all of this. As there are variables to all of this; which is something that people often forget and i s even stated i n our rules. Not one app is the same as the other when it comes to review.
- TeitokuBlackblood
- Joined : 2011-02-25
Posts : 2112
Age : 28
Location : Nowhere
Member Info
Platinum Points:
(0/0)
Tiers:
Re: Readjusting Tiers: What In The Sam Hell Do You People Want?
Sat Mar 22, 2014 12:14 am
That's pretty much my view, yeah. When I say 'time restrictions', I don't mean something set in stone, but just keeping an eye on how long someone has been here before we give them some tiers and then they don't just disappear with the going of the wind. Of course it ranges from app to app, but if one staff member believes an app is 0-2 or 0-3 worthy, then we can review them as such as we always have in the past. I don't want to have people start out low because we're 'cracking down' on tiers, which I'm not really a fan of myself, so if someone does an amazing app, I do want them rewarded from it, but the site has got much bigger than it was in 2011, so if we handed out apps with 0-2/0-3 levels or upgrades a lot, it takes away the, in a sense, sanctity of being that level.
- CPKalldayThe KFC of PH
-
Joined : 2013-11-18
Posts : 1436
Age : 32
Member Info
Platinum Points:
(25/100)
Tiers:
Re: Readjusting Tiers: What In The Sam Hell Do You People Want?
Sat Mar 22, 2014 12:45 am
While I chose "Readjust tiers and more critical reviews" I am actually a product of these things. However, I consider there to be an exception to most things, and my display of activity then and ability to portray things in the eyes of the staff made sense to trust me with an 0-5 after a couple of months. I am for readjusting tiers, but doing so with characters to that are more like that 0-5 that I have. He's of no use to me, activity-wise, and is really just holding a that tier due to his position. Which, I mean in some circumstances is fine, but the organization isn't exactly active as of right now and it's not like his tier changing is going to make me go on a rampage and storm off the site, that's childish.
So this just brings things back to 0-3/0-2. I have an 0-3... However, it was an 0-3 at approval. Something that shouldn't really be done, but something that seemed to have to be done with the current circumstances that were presented to me for my team. It is becoming an org, therefore it needed a leader. I'm not going to build this leader up from the ground up, that'd take too long. I'm trying to establish a good starting ground for my soon to be organization and nobody wants to join an org that has a 2 or 1 tier as the leader.
The point being here, that there are circumstances to which a 0-tier from the get go is fine. Filling a position that is needed and then just trying to get zero tier because you want one are two totally different things. Most 0-tiers have purposes on the site, and that is a good thing yes. However, there is no need for those that don't hold lead positions to be 0-tier in my opinion. That just takes away the significance of there being a 0-tier as the lead position. A captain in the Gotei 13 doesn't have to be a 0-tier in order to hold the position, either. You just have to be active with that character.
People are just losing sight of what is more important here, activity. If you're active with that character cool, but most likely you're just going to create another that holds your interest more, like I do, and lose interest in that other 0-tier.
My proposal isn't to nit-pick each and every 0-tier but to have people willing to say, "ok, I'm not that active with this character, so maybe it shouldn't be a 0-tier. Maybe I should get it reevaluated so that the character that I want to stand out from the others I have actually does so." Which seems like an adult thing to do, whether you are an adult or not.
EDIT: I'm all about fun and all, but it just gives of an impression that 0-tier isn't anything special and takes no effort to get. Don't get me wrong 0-tiers at approval are only given to those that show they are worthy of it, but buying your way to 0 tier is kind of lame and doesn't seem very fun. Then again, that's just me... this is just my opinion on what would make my experience here, "more fun".
So this just brings things back to 0-3/0-2. I have an 0-3... However, it was an 0-3 at approval. Something that shouldn't really be done, but something that seemed to have to be done with the current circumstances that were presented to me for my team. It is becoming an org, therefore it needed a leader. I'm not going to build this leader up from the ground up, that'd take too long. I'm trying to establish a good starting ground for my soon to be organization and nobody wants to join an org that has a 2 or 1 tier as the leader.
The point being here, that there are circumstances to which a 0-tier from the get go is fine. Filling a position that is needed and then just trying to get zero tier because you want one are two totally different things. Most 0-tiers have purposes on the site, and that is a good thing yes. However, there is no need for those that don't hold lead positions to be 0-tier in my opinion. That just takes away the significance of there being a 0-tier as the lead position. A captain in the Gotei 13 doesn't have to be a 0-tier in order to hold the position, either. You just have to be active with that character.
People are just losing sight of what is more important here, activity. If you're active with that character cool, but most likely you're just going to create another that holds your interest more, like I do, and lose interest in that other 0-tier.
My proposal isn't to nit-pick each and every 0-tier but to have people willing to say, "ok, I'm not that active with this character, so maybe it shouldn't be a 0-tier. Maybe I should get it reevaluated so that the character that I want to stand out from the others I have actually does so." Which seems like an adult thing to do, whether you are an adult or not.
EDIT: I'm all about fun and all, but it just gives of an impression that 0-tier isn't anything special and takes no effort to get. Don't get me wrong 0-tiers at approval are only given to those that show they are worthy of it, but buying your way to 0 tier is kind of lame and doesn't seem very fun. Then again, that's just me... this is just my opinion on what would make my experience here, "more fun".
- DexterityWaifu War Veteran
- Joined : 2012-11-04
Posts : 1177
Age : 31
Member Info
Platinum Points:
(248350/500000)
Tiers:
Re: Readjusting Tiers: What In The Sam Hell Do You People Want?
Sat Mar 22, 2014 12:46 am
I've never really seen tiers as an... issue. I haven't been around lately to really notice it as an issue but still. If someone really wanted a zero tier they would go through the efforts to acquire one and it was fine. It's all about fun in the end, not a contest e-peen measuring contest or anything. In my case specifically, I nearly got a zero tier the first character I put on this site (1-1++) and I was both shocked and pleased. The fact that I could get that kind of level so early on meant I didn't have to trudge and grind through the tiers to make my way towards the top. I attribute that to a big reason I enjoy this site—it's so free here. Even though I am low in muse and have a hard time roleplaying I find myself wanting to maintain a presence here, and can't find myself roleplaying anywhere else now. The power environment that is set up here is so appealing, and I would hate to see it change.
- KakeruNise no Eiyū
-
Joined : 2012-05-31
Posts : 1343
Age : 34
Location : Kagatsuchi
Member Info
Platinum Points:
(8700/99999)
Tiers:
Re: Readjusting Tiers: What In The Sam Hell Do You People Want?
Sat Mar 22, 2014 12:50 am
I agree with Kyle on this, some characters need to be retiered appropriately, and others needs to be left alone, or some notes aside that explain when this character can reach a certain power. I.e my Zero is naturally 0-4++ but in Shikokai he reaches his max of 0-3. I think depending on the class, we can assert limits that way, or another that we haven't been really using, is by when people unlock stuff. i.e Shikai for shinigami etc. Which was one of the more effective ways. Maybe we need to be a bit more strict on tiering, but I do feel that if the person has put in hard work, and posted everywhere and is active, give them the tier and see what happens. If they abuse it knock them down a bit, if they don't leave it. (Trial period is what I'm referencing here for people who don't catch my cold.), but most of the given 0 tiers are from hard work. Also, we need to balance out when it's based on position in an org given tier, and genuine hard slave labor over a computer keyboard labor. Sure some balancing is needed, but we shouldn't be too hasty with reviews if we go down this path. This is my two cents. Kake' signin' off.
- SageLord of the Understream
-
Joined : 2013-11-04
Posts : 2340
Member Info
Platinum Points:
(74095/100000)
Tiers:
Re: Readjusting Tiers: What In The Sam Hell Do You People Want?
Sat Mar 22, 2014 4:09 am
I only glossed over the other opinions, so sorry if I just restate what has already been established or opinionated. Anyways, personally, I think there should be a very large modification of the tier system, however that's only in the long-term. Right now, as I see it, tiers are being jumped through faster than I've seen before--either that or I'm going senile, but anyways, as for the long-run, I was thinking that eventually the tier system is widened. There are more and more characters getting to the borderline just before 0-1-, whether in some released state or base. Either way, there are more people getting to the point where it seems to be nearly impossible to keep pushing forward, lest your character essentially achieves some sort of higher-state on par with perhaps divinity or something. Basically, it seems like we're reaching a cap. Thus, I feel like there should be some way to establish a broader gap between the those on that brink and the level beyond which reaches heights only achieved by NPCs as a base state (as far as I know), rather than just a sub-tier. The way I see it, there are two ways to do so. Either push everybody back, adding more value to the higher tiers, or extend the tier system beyond 6-0, where a powerless human would be something like 8-0, etc. Of course, this is only an idea that can be taken into effect over a long-period of time, slowly changing a superbly major part of the site.
As for ways to achieve this, I have a few ideas. These ideas can also be taken as individual ideas, where you can pretty much scrap the "long-run" change.
One of the main concerns is the insanely large amount of 0-tiers. Like most others, I agree that 0-tiers should require dual-staff checks. Of course, I also agree on having the checks be stricter with the higher tiers requiring higher-quality apps, stronger abilities, etc. For the most part, I think a character starting out at 0 tier at all should be a rarity, lest granted special permission by an admin, or rather, put simpler, checked by two admins. Of course, staff members in general are busy people, especially admins, but I still think that simply a double check by staff at 0-3/0-2 tier isn't enough. I also think there should be a cap in which one can start out at. In my opinion, characters shouldn't be able to start out at a tier lower than 0-4. Like CPK, I think an exception might be a character which is created to fill a position. Of course, there's always the option of making them NPC, but NPCs aren't always adequate, so yeh.
As for the buying of tiers, I don't think it should be taken away altogether, but rather, buying tiers should be more expensive, and there should be a certain point in which you can buy tiers. For example, you can't buy 0-tiers. Those must be achieved with tier-upgrades or by re-apping a char after providing adequate proof and reason for why they should go a tier higher, as is the usual.
Now a bit of a problem might present itself, and I thought of it after glossing over Phantasia's post. A large appeal to PH is the freedom of combat, power, and the lack of numeral restrictions and definite limits. Extremely few RPs have that. Most of them use numbers, have defined restrictions and basically are stricter on powers and the limits. I've in fact seen VERY few sites that don't have a list of banned/restricted powers, and I've yet to find one of those here. Again, that grants a large factor in PH's pizzazz. This also means that the opportunity to start out higher straight up is of appeal, which too is something not all RPs have, and appeal also results in offering factors which keep an RPs uniqueness, attraction, and overall can make a better, funner experience for the community as a whole, thus, barring up the tier system and adding/changing too many things from its current system may present future problems; though I'd assume many have foreseen the possibilities.
Thus, I mulled over it a bit and came up with the extension of the tier system wholly, as mentioned in the beginning of this post. Extending the tier system and moving people back the tiers offers the possibility to reach for even higher states without nearing the brink in which characters can supply entire races energy from themselves. Furthermore, the extension offers a more specific set rank/tier, which might even help with filling spots in organizations that require certain minimum tiers. Without a more specific system, there can be less shots in the dark on whether a character is capable of fulfilling a position with the proper amount of power s/he holds (although I don't know how much of a problem that might actually be here). Another one of an extensions benefits is the further growth of not just a character, but the person behind the character. Extension of the leveling system could lead into the extension in time it takes to "level up"; however, that also leaves more opportunities to go ahead and thread with the aspiration to jump ahead multiple sub-tiers. Such as now, if you were to go from 2-5 to 2-4, with the extension, it might look something along the lines of 4-5 to 4-2. Though there's technically no difference, there's the "appeal" factor which might be affected. Everyone likes to see there levels go up quicker! This would probably be the least beneficial in terms of betterment of the site though.
As I hope I actually made sense, as I myself got lost there a couple times, the actual extension of the tier system is, again, something that would need to be implemented over a long period of time, and would also probably offer a larger work-load for the staff, however, some other suggestions that would help lead into a tier extension, once again, can also be taken individually and still hopefully make a beneficial impact. Either way, with the most worrisome thing being the large amount of higher-tiered characters, a clearer line established between power-levels as well as the establishment of the 0-tiers rarity and worth seem necessary.
As for ways to achieve this, I have a few ideas. These ideas can also be taken as individual ideas, where you can pretty much scrap the "long-run" change.
One of the main concerns is the insanely large amount of 0-tiers. Like most others, I agree that 0-tiers should require dual-staff checks. Of course, I also agree on having the checks be stricter with the higher tiers requiring higher-quality apps, stronger abilities, etc. For the most part, I think a character starting out at 0 tier at all should be a rarity, lest granted special permission by an admin, or rather, put simpler, checked by two admins. Of course, staff members in general are busy people, especially admins, but I still think that simply a double check by staff at 0-3/0-2 tier isn't enough. I also think there should be a cap in which one can start out at. In my opinion, characters shouldn't be able to start out at a tier lower than 0-4. Like CPK, I think an exception might be a character which is created to fill a position. Of course, there's always the option of making them NPC, but NPCs aren't always adequate, so yeh.
As for the buying of tiers, I don't think it should be taken away altogether, but rather, buying tiers should be more expensive, and there should be a certain point in which you can buy tiers. For example, you can't buy 0-tiers. Those must be achieved with tier-upgrades or by re-apping a char after providing adequate proof and reason for why they should go a tier higher, as is the usual.
Now a bit of a problem might present itself, and I thought of it after glossing over Phantasia's post. A large appeal to PH is the freedom of combat, power, and the lack of numeral restrictions and definite limits. Extremely few RPs have that. Most of them use numbers, have defined restrictions and basically are stricter on powers and the limits. I've in fact seen VERY few sites that don't have a list of banned/restricted powers, and I've yet to find one of those here. Again, that grants a large factor in PH's pizzazz. This also means that the opportunity to start out higher straight up is of appeal, which too is something not all RPs have, and appeal also results in offering factors which keep an RPs uniqueness, attraction, and overall can make a better, funner experience for the community as a whole, thus, barring up the tier system and adding/changing too many things from its current system may present future problems; though I'd assume many have foreseen the possibilities.
Thus, I mulled over it a bit and came up with the extension of the tier system wholly, as mentioned in the beginning of this post. Extending the tier system and moving people back the tiers offers the possibility to reach for even higher states without nearing the brink in which characters can supply entire races energy from themselves. Furthermore, the extension offers a more specific set rank/tier, which might even help with filling spots in organizations that require certain minimum tiers. Without a more specific system, there can be less shots in the dark on whether a character is capable of fulfilling a position with the proper amount of power s/he holds (although I don't know how much of a problem that might actually be here). Another one of an extensions benefits is the further growth of not just a character, but the person behind the character. Extension of the leveling system could lead into the extension in time it takes to "level up"; however, that also leaves more opportunities to go ahead and thread with the aspiration to jump ahead multiple sub-tiers. Such as now, if you were to go from 2-5 to 2-4, with the extension, it might look something along the lines of 4-5 to 4-2. Though there's technically no difference, there's the "appeal" factor which might be affected. Everyone likes to see there levels go up quicker! This would probably be the least beneficial in terms of betterment of the site though.
As I hope I actually made sense, as I myself got lost there a couple times, the actual extension of the tier system is, again, something that would need to be implemented over a long period of time, and would also probably offer a larger work-load for the staff, however, some other suggestions that would help lead into a tier extension, once again, can also be taken individually and still hopefully make a beneficial impact. Either way, with the most worrisome thing being the large amount of higher-tiered characters, a clearer line established between power-levels as well as the establishment of the 0-tiers rarity and worth seem necessary.
- ||-BlankMystery-||Shrine Maiden
-
Joined : 2011-07-27
Posts : 669
Age : 31
Location : In The White Morning
Member Info
Platinum Points:
(28000/100000)
Tiers:
Re: Readjusting Tiers: What In The Sam Hell Do You People Want?
Sat Mar 22, 2014 4:35 am
Blank's Thoughts
I'm not going to do some overdrawn reply. I'm going to keep things simple and say that perhaps a bit of both worlds is needed. You can't do the extreme of either. As far as PH goes? You need a good balance between structure and looseness with how the site is set-up. So I suggest just keeping a closer eye as to who gets the higher tiers, doing the double check for 0-3/0-2's and observing 0-4/0-5's closer. You can also ask for voluntarily tier downgrades for people who believe they have inactive 0 tiers.
What I think this comes down to is that everyone wants this and that, but we need to find a happy middle ground. Everyone isn't going to be happy all of the time, and it's difficult to have a high chance of success trying to make sure people's feelings aren't hurt. So comprise is needed on both ends and I believe keeping things as they are with a more keen inspection of 0 tiers is what's needed.
tl;dr I just agree with Kyle.
[ T H E P R O T E C T O R ]
[ O F I R A M A S H A I S L A N D ]
[ O F I R A M A S H A I S L A N D ]
Page 1 of 3 • 1, 2, 3
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum